Winters vs Summers

Got a question about your ALPINA ask it here !
You've got the car now you need to know something, techincal advice, specific questions etc.

Moderators: Charles, neil, D4

Post Reply
Grumpyjohn1957
ALP
ALP
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:53 pm

Winters vs Summers

Post by Grumpyjohn1957 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:56 pm

Needing new rears, the weather getting colder with a cooler than normal season forecast thought I might invest in some winter tyres.
At great expense I’ve had fitted “Alp” marked Sottozero 2 to Brunhilda’s standard rims.
The last occasion I ran winters on a car was back in 2010, a particularly cold and snowy one you might recall. Michelin Alpins transformed my Passat of the time, bags of grip wet or dry, good on ice, plenty of snow traction, not temperature sensitive and saw out the following summer.

Can honestly say thus far with the B5, I’m totally underwhelmed.

I went with the Sotto’s as car is still under warranty and they are the stated Alpina handbook recommendation carrying of course the ALP mark.
In fairness I’ve only done 250 or so miles and have yet to drive in snow.

What’s not to like then? Great for understeer, not. Car will 4-wheel slide laterally when I know the P Zero would have hung on with maybe an odd wheel chattering a bit over black joints or slime. The ABS regularly kicks in under moderate braking on damp surfaces, which I’ve never, ever felt with the Zeros. Fast braking on cold dry tarmac gets interestingly wiggly on the front. Certain surfaces can be very noisy. Rears easily break traction, even more so than worn-out Zeros. The general feeling all round is of floating rather than being planted on the road. Strangely, turning in is sharp and immediate, inspiring a confidence not reinforced by what follows! No idea on fuel consumption yet. Waiting for some real white stuff to try them on. Maybe I’ll have a play with the pressures as Mr Buzzgun advised winters need to run lower pressures.
Please bear in mind with my comments I’m not driving like I stole the car or even spiritedly, just slightly quicker than an average Hyundai Getz. Yes, I know the series 2 are an old design, 3 is apparently better, but I’m beginning to think I should have fitted something else completely.
Some of you run winter wheels & tyres in varying combinations, how do you find the transition from summer to winters for handling and grip? What do you do with the pressures? Drop a bit or a lot?
John
2019 G31 B5 Biturbo Touring #336 - Sophisto Grey
(Brunhilda)

User avatar
Charles
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8061
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 2:44 am
Location: Oxford

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by Charles » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:40 pm

Hi John,

Some initial observations for you to consider, based on my experiences of running winter tyres over the last 6-7 years:

1. Winter rubber is a different and softer compound than summer rubber, to allow for better flexibility/compliance at lower temperatures. The benefits tend to kick-in below 7C but also means that above these temperatures, you are likely to experience a, shall we say, more fluid feel!

2. New tyres have a releasing agent on the surface which needs to be worn away, during which time you are likely to experience loss of grip in terms of traction and steering. This usually takes about 250 miles but depends on the surfaces you have been driving on. This has happened every time I have fitted a new set of winter rubber - so I am not surprised - but you might also want to consider the next point.

3. I tend to run my winter tyres at a slightly lower pressure than the summer rubber as it removes the floaty feeling that you might experience which comes from the softer sidewalls. I would suggest you play around with pressures to get a "feel" that you are happy with. It may be that you actually need a higher pressure as it is Pirelli rubber compared to my experiences with Michelin. A bit of trial and error will tell you what feels right for you.

4. Winter rubber on performance cars such as ours is a bit of a compromise when pushing on but more than make up for this when conditions are cold, wet, icy and snowy as they generate significantly more grip on these surfaces courtesy of the additional sipes cut into each tread block (these are the extra cuts you will see between the main block gaps). It is these extra edges that provide the grip in poor conditions.

5. My experience comes from using 17" Michelin Alpins on a set of BMW wheels, until recently when I swapped to 18"Pilot Alpins on a second set of Alpina wheels. The transition from Michelin summer to winter rubber has never been that dramatic for me but I cannot comment on Pirelli rubber - apart from a brief dalliance with P-Zero tyres which lasted 250 miles as I experienced many of the symptoms that you describe. Thankfully my tyre fitters were brilliant and swapped me back to Michelins without any questions. I wonder whether this might also be contributing but I cannot be sure.

I hope some of this might make sense and help you to rationalise what is going on. Feel free to pick my brains further as you see fit.

Take care

C
Charles
Teacher of Chemistry and driver of ALPINAs - not necessarily in that order ;)
B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!

ScooBeeFive
ALPINA
ALPINA
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:40 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by ScooBeeFive » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:24 pm

Hi John,

I've been running winters for years now on several different cars. During this time I've tried a few different brands - I ran Sottozeros on my old 130i and wasn't that impressed. After that, I moved to Nokians for both my 535i and my wife's 1 Series and found them to be excellent. I couldn't get Nokians in the right size for the B5 so went with Michelin Pilot Alpin 5s.

It's been over 10 years since I had the 130i but my memory of the Pirellis was a very soft feeling sidewall, a feeling that it would lean and then settle as it entered a corner, and not much grip overall. I found the Nokians much better - more direct and consistent. They would get a bit wayward if they started to overheat, a real drop off in performance, but generally they were great. Fantastic in standing water, but that's true for all the winters I have tried. In some ways, I actually preferred the way my 535i drove on the winters - mainly because I had them mounted on 18" wheels rather than 19s for the summers. They were so much lighter and you could really notice the difference. Also, the slightly lower grip threshold was more fun - you could approach the limits more easily.

I've just swapped over to the Alpins this winter and they are definitely no match for the PS4S summers - there's a general vagueness about them, not so sharp feeling, but they improve if the weather is colder. If you get a few days when it's around 12 degrees you can feel them struggle.

As Charles said, it's definitely worth experimenting with pressures. I actually found running higher pressures took away some of the 'soft' feeling and made them drive more like the summers. Definitely have a play.

Hope some of that was helpful!
Paul

2013 F11 B5 BiTurbo Touring #135 - Alpina Blue
2017 F33 B4S BiTurbo Cabrio #235 - Tanzanite Blue

Marc 76
ALPI
ALPI
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:53 pm

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by Marc 76 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:22 pm

I have run them in the past on my BMW's (Vredestein Wintrac) and suffered many of the issues explained above. A waywardness, general floaty feeling etc.
I came to the conclusion that they are only better than an all season tyre in the very worst of UK conditions, possibly about 5% of our winter. A handful of days at most. (just my opinion) Therefore they are mostly worse than all season tyres on an average winters day in the UK, which is why i stopped using them.

Currently i have no intention of putting a set on the Alpina for my first winter with the car, but that said if it snows, most of the time i have the option of my wifes 120D XDrive which is a lot of fun in snow!
F11 D5 BiTurbo #049
1990 Escort Series 2 RS Turbo
1983 Escort 400bhp Time Attack Car

ScooBeeFive
ALPINA
ALPINA
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:40 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by ScooBeeFive » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 pm

It’s a fair point that we’d probably be better off running all season tyres as ‘winters’ in the UK. I’ve watched some recent tyre reviews that show all seasons being very close to full winters in the snow and probably better than on a general UK winters day. Maybe next time….
Paul

2013 F11 B5 BiTurbo Touring #135 - Alpina Blue
2017 F33 B4S BiTurbo Cabrio #235 - Tanzanite Blue

Marc 76
ALPI
ALPI
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:53 pm

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by Marc 76 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:47 am

Uniroyal Rainsports did it for me, an excellent all rounder in all conditions and felt better in winter than the Vredestein Wintracs virtually all of the time, no matter how bad the weather.
Appreciate that there is generally less choice available in Alpina sizes however...
F11 D5 BiTurbo #049
1990 Escort Series 2 RS Turbo
1983 Escort 400bhp Time Attack Car

Grumpyjohn1957
ALP
ALP
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:53 pm

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by Grumpyjohn1957 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:17 pm

I think Charles has nailed the issue with point 2 regarding release agents.
After reading, I decided some abrasion and getting heat into them might help. A serious 5 min “warm up” followed by another 200 miles of the east midlands finest cold, damp, salt-soaked oily roads and I finally have adhesion.
The ABS has stopped buzzing, the back end is getting the power down once more. I wouldn’t have credited this had I not experienced for myself. It’s a little like new pads and discs, they don’t work so well……then suddenly.
Going to have a play with the pressures next week to refine the ride. At the current 3.2bar the car feels not unlike my old 530d with its run flats.
A rubbery, bounce, bounce, boing! feeling. Maybe it’s just me, the B5 and all other forms of G31 seem very sensitive to tyre pressure.
Thanks all, Grumpy is now a little less so today!
John
2019 G31 B5 Biturbo Touring #336 - Sophisto Grey
(Brunhilda)

ScooBeeFive
ALPINA
ALPINA
Posts: 1217
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:40 pm
Location: Shropshire

Re: Winters vs Summers

Post by ScooBeeFive » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:27 pm

Good news John!
Paul

2013 F11 B5 BiTurbo Touring #135 - Alpina Blue
2017 F33 B4S BiTurbo Cabrio #235 - Tanzanite Blue

Post Reply