E46 B3 cabrio #128. 95k miles.
Around a year ago I had a (very) expensive full engine rebuild via a local indie. I believe a lot of the work was unnecessary but I got sucked in. I won't bore you with a long story. I was told the Vanos was ok but they replaced the seals as a matter of course. That was 3,500 miles ago.
I now have a rattle either side of around 3000 rpm both rise and fall (car stationary, bonnet open) and a slight rattle at tickover so took it back to the indie. They've said the helical gear set needs replacing (splined shaft, camshaft, sprocket). Labour will be F.O.C. but parts at my cost. There's some uncertainty as to the correct part numbers between them, the local BMW dealer and Alpina GB Nottingham which allegedly can't be resolved until it's stripped down and either the diagnosis confirmed or something else is revealed. Last time they had the car for five months 'sourcing parts' and finding other things 'wrong'. I'm not going through that again! I don't need the expense either.
1. It's lacking grunt at the bottom end.
2. They acknowledge the Vanos is not working as it should.
3. A camshaft timing fault shows up. Don't know the code.
4. They say the new seals should still be ok. Did they use cheap ones?
5. Can the gear set wear to that extent when it's in constant mesh?
6. They've made no mention of Vanos rattle.
7. If play is excessive now it should have been evident at rebuild.
7. I've lost whatever confidence I had left in them.
I've been mugging up on the Baisan Systems rattle repair kit and piston seals. I've seen the repair videos. Excessive axial and radial wear makes sense to me. The kits are reasonably priced.
Could this be the answer to my rattle? Do these kits work and last? They won't let me supply parts 'cos they 'can't warrant them'. Lol. Should I accept their F.O.C. labour offer or bite the bullet and take it somewhere else?
Thanks.
Single Vanos Rattle.
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octanejunkie
- A
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 pm
- Location: Somerset
Thanks for the replies so far.
Simon. Engine is 3.3 B3 which I opted for instead of the B3S because of its reported head gasket susceptibility. Wrong decision as it turned out.
First owner fastidious to March 2014 at 85,688 miles, second owner perhaps less so to March 2017 when I bought it from a dealer at 92,583. It had been at the dealer since Dec 2016 but I couldn't find out why it had sat there for so long. I had it checked and serviced straight away at a reputable classic car garage (ex BMW workshop manager) then contacted and met the previous owner who drove the car again. He seemed a little reticent about his time with the car but swore blind it performed as well as it always had done with him. Not convinced I immediately took it to a local specialist previously unknown to me who said "misfire on cylinder #1; plugs point to misfire present for some time" [plugs had been replaced at my first service two weeks before but they suggested not]. "Test CYL #1 found exhaust valve leaking. Check camshaft sensor - found cam wheel bent and touching sensor. Vanos seals leaking. Rocker cover gasket leaking into plug holes: further investigation required".
Initially I'd been told #1 was 30% down on compression (no values quoted for the other 5). I'd contacted the dealer who spoke with the indie. He offered me a decent rebate (fair do's to him) so I kept the car. Having had no issues with a slightly older, two owner, FSH, 150,000 mile 330i SE (my first BMW) and wanting to see the car I'd always wished for done right, muggins fell for it.
That's when five months of pain and outrageous expense started.
"Remove cylinder head (in situ) found gasket blown. Camshaft damage evident. Camshaft carrier also damaged / scored. Damage to engine block surface. 7 leaking valves. Remove and strip in full. Further damage found. Block, head and crank need re-engineering".
At this point I was also told a piston liner had come away so there was likely some serious damage further down, though I'd heard nothing amiss, but better safe than sorry. By this time I was already deeper in than I'd ever intended. I'd told the indie from the off that I wasn't looking for a perfect car but they wouldn't warrant work on the head having 'identified' underlying issues with the block. It felt like they'd hi-jacked my car and were holding it to ransom. The rest of the car was otherwise sound and in very good condition but the unit was in bits so, hey ho, what could I do.
Both head and block went away for re-engineering at a well known Bradford engine builder. Came back with "Pressure test cylinder head, surface mill cylinder head, reface valve seats, reface valves, exhaust guide, valve stem seals, polish cams, de-grease and reassemble. Pressure test block, surface grind cylinder block, hone cylinders, re-ring pistons, polish crankshaft, polish piston / crankshaft assembly, ancillaries." Total cost for the re-engineering including indie mark up, £2,125 + VAT. So not much actually needed despite all the 'identified' doom and gloom. Then we come to the rest.
New fly wheel, ignition coils, plugs, fuel pump, top and timing chains plus tensioners, camshaft position sensor, pick up wheel cam sensor, two cam carriers, water pump, A/C belt, alternator belt, oil filter, main oil seals, all the other seals and gaskets, cooling fan shroud, other bits and pieces without which they wouldn't warranty the work and a new pair of new rear springs for good measure. "We 100% back our expertise but only if work is fully completed to our stringent standards". Together with the engine rebuild and earlier diagnostic work the final bill came to around £10,000. Labour was not itemised. My original working and still serviceable ancillary parts were not offered back to me.
Sorry for the long version but fellow owners can now perhaps appreciate why my one and only Alpina experience has been severely tainted.
This brings me once again to the continuing saga of the Vanos gear set part numbers. On Monday this week this same indie said they are Alpina specific but Alpina won't quote price or availability without an identifying photograph for verification of the incumbent part numbers. This obviously demands a partial strip down. I've asked them instead to quote the engine number which they should be able to confirm from when the rebuild was done. I could supply it from the V5 but they're "too busy to dig out the job sheet from a year ago" which tells its own story, and they say it wouldn't help anyway.
Having recently been quoted over £6,000 for a new exhaust (now successfully welded) I fear the worst so asked the price of the equivalent 330i Vanos gear set as a guide. I was told that was pointless as that's not what was needed. I asked about Vanos rattle since they'd not even mentioned that possibility. I was succinctly told not to question the aural diagnostic capabilities of their expert main man.
Obviously this can't go on like this, attractive as a labour free fix of something I believe should have been identified and sorted during the rebuild to their own "stringent standards". It looks like they're backing out of their responsibilities by making it impossible for me press the issue except on their terms.
I agree I need a second or even third opinion but I doubt my local Sandal dealer could help. Is it worth me taking it to Sytner Alpina in Sheffield - no freeby opinions there either - or can someone point me towards a good alternative indie in the Leeds / Manchester / Sheffield conurbation?
Many thanks.
Simon. Engine is 3.3 B3 which I opted for instead of the B3S because of its reported head gasket susceptibility. Wrong decision as it turned out.
First owner fastidious to March 2014 at 85,688 miles, second owner perhaps less so to March 2017 when I bought it from a dealer at 92,583. It had been at the dealer since Dec 2016 but I couldn't find out why it had sat there for so long. I had it checked and serviced straight away at a reputable classic car garage (ex BMW workshop manager) then contacted and met the previous owner who drove the car again. He seemed a little reticent about his time with the car but swore blind it performed as well as it always had done with him. Not convinced I immediately took it to a local specialist previously unknown to me who said "misfire on cylinder #1; plugs point to misfire present for some time" [plugs had been replaced at my first service two weeks before but they suggested not]. "Test CYL #1 found exhaust valve leaking. Check camshaft sensor - found cam wheel bent and touching sensor. Vanos seals leaking. Rocker cover gasket leaking into plug holes: further investigation required".
Initially I'd been told #1 was 30% down on compression (no values quoted for the other 5). I'd contacted the dealer who spoke with the indie. He offered me a decent rebate (fair do's to him) so I kept the car. Having had no issues with a slightly older, two owner, FSH, 150,000 mile 330i SE (my first BMW) and wanting to see the car I'd always wished for done right, muggins fell for it.
That's when five months of pain and outrageous expense started.
"Remove cylinder head (in situ) found gasket blown. Camshaft damage evident. Camshaft carrier also damaged / scored. Damage to engine block surface. 7 leaking valves. Remove and strip in full. Further damage found. Block, head and crank need re-engineering".
At this point I was also told a piston liner had come away so there was likely some serious damage further down, though I'd heard nothing amiss, but better safe than sorry. By this time I was already deeper in than I'd ever intended. I'd told the indie from the off that I wasn't looking for a perfect car but they wouldn't warrant work on the head having 'identified' underlying issues with the block. It felt like they'd hi-jacked my car and were holding it to ransom. The rest of the car was otherwise sound and in very good condition but the unit was in bits so, hey ho, what could I do.
Both head and block went away for re-engineering at a well known Bradford engine builder. Came back with "Pressure test cylinder head, surface mill cylinder head, reface valve seats, reface valves, exhaust guide, valve stem seals, polish cams, de-grease and reassemble. Pressure test block, surface grind cylinder block, hone cylinders, re-ring pistons, polish crankshaft, polish piston / crankshaft assembly, ancillaries." Total cost for the re-engineering including indie mark up, £2,125 + VAT. So not much actually needed despite all the 'identified' doom and gloom. Then we come to the rest.
New fly wheel, ignition coils, plugs, fuel pump, top and timing chains plus tensioners, camshaft position sensor, pick up wheel cam sensor, two cam carriers, water pump, A/C belt, alternator belt, oil filter, main oil seals, all the other seals and gaskets, cooling fan shroud, other bits and pieces without which they wouldn't warranty the work and a new pair of new rear springs for good measure. "We 100% back our expertise but only if work is fully completed to our stringent standards". Together with the engine rebuild and earlier diagnostic work the final bill came to around £10,000. Labour was not itemised. My original working and still serviceable ancillary parts were not offered back to me.
Sorry for the long version but fellow owners can now perhaps appreciate why my one and only Alpina experience has been severely tainted.
This brings me once again to the continuing saga of the Vanos gear set part numbers. On Monday this week this same indie said they are Alpina specific but Alpina won't quote price or availability without an identifying photograph for verification of the incumbent part numbers. This obviously demands a partial strip down. I've asked them instead to quote the engine number which they should be able to confirm from when the rebuild was done. I could supply it from the V5 but they're "too busy to dig out the job sheet from a year ago" which tells its own story, and they say it wouldn't help anyway.
Having recently been quoted over £6,000 for a new exhaust (now successfully welded) I fear the worst so asked the price of the equivalent 330i Vanos gear set as a guide. I was told that was pointless as that's not what was needed. I asked about Vanos rattle since they'd not even mentioned that possibility. I was succinctly told not to question the aural diagnostic capabilities of their expert main man.
Obviously this can't go on like this, attractive as a labour free fix of something I believe should have been identified and sorted during the rebuild to their own "stringent standards". It looks like they're backing out of their responsibilities by making it impossible for me press the issue except on their terms.
I agree I need a second or even third opinion but I doubt my local Sandal dealer could help. Is it worth me taking it to Sytner Alpina in Sheffield - no freeby opinions there either - or can someone point me towards a good alternative indie in the Leeds / Manchester / Sheffield conurbation?
Many thanks.
E46 B3 cabrio
Sorry to hear of your woes.
Sounds like an awful lot of potentially unneeded new parts were fitted
£10k for a rebuild seems a lot without doing the vanos in full.
In your shoes I wouldn't touch that garage with a 50 foot barge pole
The are clearly ripping the piss I'm afraid
Sounds like an awful lot of potentially unneeded new parts were fitted
£10k for a rebuild seems a lot without doing the vanos in full.
In your shoes I wouldn't touch that garage with a 50 foot barge pole
The are clearly ripping the piss I'm afraid
B3 3.3 Coupe #090
D3 2.0 Biturbo Touring #098
D3 2.0 Biturbo Touring #098
this garage sound like twats sorry
I rebuilt my engine as said which was because of my vanos unit. I rebuilt the unit with new BMW parts. 45,000 miles later the engine and vanos are good.
see the 3 studs sticking out from the unit? This is the later 1999 style of holding the unit together. Alpina bought up the stock of single vanos units from BMW for their engines. This is a revised design by bmw. It doesn't work and many B3s have suffered vanos faults from this. Mine was really really bad.
My chain, tensioner, sprockets were all fucked also
I rebuilt the unit using the earlier setup which (never goes wrong) with normal BMW parts. Its a stud and nut design and actually holds the unit together! Phil crouch told me that i should replace the 4 washers as when these wear this is what causes the rattle, the wear isn't always obvious and they aren't expensive parts really
just a pic to help so you have some ammo!
I've a feeling a feeling the "alpina" parts aren't really anything different to the stock E36 parts. I've never seen the alpina revised parts but i'd like to!
HTH
I rebuilt my engine as said which was because of my vanos unit. I rebuilt the unit with new BMW parts. 45,000 miles later the engine and vanos are good.
see the 3 studs sticking out from the unit? This is the later 1999 style of holding the unit together. Alpina bought up the stock of single vanos units from BMW for their engines. This is a revised design by bmw. It doesn't work and many B3s have suffered vanos faults from this. Mine was really really bad.
My chain, tensioner, sprockets were all fucked also
I rebuilt the unit using the earlier setup which (never goes wrong) with normal BMW parts. Its a stud and nut design and actually holds the unit together! Phil crouch told me that i should replace the 4 washers as when these wear this is what causes the rattle, the wear isn't always obvious and they aren't expensive parts really
just a pic to help so you have some ammo!
I've a feeling a feeling the "alpina" parts aren't really anything different to the stock E36 parts. I've never seen the alpina revised parts but i'd like to!
HTH
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octanejunkie
- A
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:36 pm
- Location: Somerset
What a shame. Gutted for you.
Some garages really tend to rip off the unsuspecting. That straight six is a really good solid engine, and aside from head gaskets and VANOS, rarely suffers from serious maladies.
I had a similar experience with a Hartge H5 i had some years ago. Indie thought they might be able to fleece me for a few quid. Fortunately i'm quite well versed in engine work and called them on it. It got very frosty in the office for a while.
Out of adjustment valve clearances are NOT a knackered cam and chain....
Of little help i'm sure, but i'm furious at how you've been treated.
Some garages really tend to rip off the unsuspecting. That straight six is a really good solid engine, and aside from head gaskets and VANOS, rarely suffers from serious maladies.
I had a similar experience with a Hartge H5 i had some years ago. Indie thought they might be able to fleece me for a few quid. Fortunately i'm quite well versed in engine work and called them on it. It got very frosty in the office for a while.
Out of adjustment valve clearances are NOT a knackered cam and chain....
Of little help i'm sure, but i'm furious at how you've been treated.
If its a job no man can survive, he's the man for the job.