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Defining what is a 'rare' Alpina...
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E24man
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Defining what is a 'rare' Alpina... Reply with quote

I know that in sheer motoring terms any Alpina is built in small enough numbers to all be genuinely called rare but what numbers or definitions makes an Alpina model 'rare' in terms of Alpina production themselves?

In terms of strictly Limited Production numbers imposed by Buchloe before a model production has commenced I can only think of the following...

E12 B7S Turbo Saloon, 60 made.
E24 B7S Turbo Coupe, 30.
E30(?) Z1 RLE, 66.
E52 Z8 Roadster, 555.
F10/11 B5 Bi-Turbo Edition 50, 50.
F12 B6 Bi-Turbo Edition 50, 50.

The anomaly in there is of course the E52 which with numbers of 555 is up there competing as one Alpina's most numerous models ever produced, along with B5 saloons (428 made), B3 3.3 saloons (591 made), D3 saloons (614), D3 Bi-Turbo saloons (478), B10 3.5 (572) and even the B10 Bi-Turbo (507).

The most numerous I can find is B10 V8 saloons with 854 (there are another 207 facelift saloons but even Buchloe has them under a separate number system) although I am happy to be corrected.

The least numerous car is well documented as being the E24 B9 Coupe with just two examples (as opposed to the facelift E24 B9/1 Coupe with 75 examples) but at what point does an Alpina become 'rare' within the Alpina production history itself?

I don't think the quirk, and hence rarity, of rhd Alpina's should be included as is it just a throwback of how motoring generations over the world chose to ignore historical ideas in some cases as a bid to rid themselves of any British influence.

Differences in body shapes I think are important as Cabriolets are generally rarer than Coupes and Tourings ordered in far fewer numbers than Saloons.

So what is a 'rare' Alpina? Is it 75-ish so that the eponymously titled RLE (Roadster Limited Edition) is encompassed?

What then becomes 'very rare', 25? 30? 50 seems too close to the 75 (or 66) of the RLE definition so maybe 'rare' is 100 and 'very rare' is 50?

Just genuinely interested in peoples opinions if you have them? If you don't, fair enough, have a gratuitous 1 of only 30 pic to see you on your way...


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CaesarBob
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting debate and one which I fully expect will draw a variety of opinions.

For me, I think you should allow a distinction for RHD/LHD. Although you may have a relative plethora of LHD variants of a particular model, in a RHD market it has a much lower desirability and the particular preferences of that market will have dictated different concentrations of particular models purchased new. That will lead to pockets of rarity within countries or continents versus a global view.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rhd/lhd distinction is interesting, not least because there might be a few one-offs and quite a lot of specific models produced in single figures in the UK which for the relatively small portion of the Alpina global market can skew the overall picture considerably.

There is also the issue of those Alpina cars that were not offered in rhd at all, of which there are many.
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CaesarBob
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your E34 B10 V8 is the perfect example: 1 of 1. Can't get much rarer than that!!
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E24man
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaesarBob wrote:
Your E34 B10 V8 is the perfect example: 1 of 1. Can't get much rarer than that!!


Strictly speaking it's a B10 4.6, but there are actually 19 of them in Touring bodyshape, but just one in rhd. The E34 B10 4.0 Touring is actually rarer with just four examples, but all lhd.

As for rhd Touring rarity it is matched by the E61 B5S Touring with one car in rhd, but another 58 in lhd throughout the world.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the E30 B6S there were only 62 cars built, what a corker they are!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to consider my B6s convertible as a rare model. 1 of 3 U.K. cars, 1 of 40 globally. It would be nice to get all 3 together one day. Robís #105 and My #100 have been in the same meet a few times but the third sister is up in Scotland apparently and in hiding for now!
I think as Alpina owners we donít appreciate just how rare they are sometimes. Even the more ďpopularĒ models are still rare compared to the general car population.
This topic lends itself to an Animal farm quote of sorts I think.

All Alpina are rare, but some are rarer than others.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely its got to be what has survived that makes them rare today regardless of original production numbers (not talking about values)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:27 pm    Post subject: rare Reply with quote

I have to consider my RHD E65 B7 rare, 11 made for UK of which it is believed only 7 remain. I think mine was the only one registered in 2006 so 1 of 1 for that year. I have only ever physically seen one other RHD E65 but have seen a photo with three others in it owned by same person.

On the basis that if I take my car to a show there is never another on display and has not been in the 6 years I owned mine I would say its very rare.

Oh yes the blue Japanese import that was for sale, was not made for UK so I discount it in my personal calculation of rare E65 RHD for UK.

Also as far as I am aware none of the E65 RHD are exactly the same, the one I have had 18K worth of extras and has platinum merino seats and alcantara headlining with black piano wood trim. It is a one off in that respect.
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PhillV8S
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if you start trying to find individuality by specification that is weakening your point of view Norman. As there are thousands of permutations of car specifications these days.
Yes, there are not many B7ís in the UK so definitely a rarity here and most are around Coventry these days but there were approx 800 sold in the US and 311 for the rest of the world so over 1000 in total. Still small change in the grand scheme of things but for Alpina quite popular.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhillV8S wrote:
I think if you start trying to find individuality by specification that is weakening your point of view ...

I definitely agreed here Phil. If you allow spec variation into the mix, it would be tricky to argue there are many duplicates outside the E9x D3 and D3 BiTurbos which were heavily limited in terms of options choice.
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E24man
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Phil suggests, defining a specific Alpina car as rare based on its individual specification or year of production is almost immediately and ultimately futile as I suspect way more than half the Alpina cars ever produced would by this method be defined as one-of-one Laughing

In terms of the E65 B7 cars there are 943 cars worldwide and 170 E66 B7 cars. In global terms this marks the cars as pretty numerous but as Norrie points out, just 11 E65 cars came to the UK. That figure of 943 cars is hugely bolstered by the 803 US cars but Alpina saw a market and sold cars - that's what their business is.

If you compare the 11 UK cars to the global E65 B7 figure it does make them seem very rare but if you compare the 11 UK cars to other UK model numbers around that time such as the E39 B10 V8S Touring and E61 B5 Touring with 4 cars or the E63 and E64 cars with 3 each it starts to look like a larger number. Likewise if you compare it to the 71 rhd E60 B5 cars it looks smaller again.

In terms of 7 Series Alpina cars made for the UK the E65 is once again caught in the middle being more than each E38 model with two lwb B12 5.7's, six B12 6.0 cars, and eight B12 5.7's, more than the one-off F and G series B7 BiTurbos but considerably less than the E23 B10 3.5 cars (perhaps as many as 37) and probably less than the E32 cars with perhaps 27 over the two models, B11 3.5 and B12 5.0.

I think it's a question of drawing the appropriate comparisons by either choosing the global production completely regardless of steering wheel location or the UK market as a sole entity; the latter seems to preclude a lot of Alpina cars which by virtue of their steering wheel position were never marketed here, nor even sold here.

As I hinted out in the first post, all Alpina cars are rare on a global motoring scale but I was trying to provoke a discussion on what makes an individual Alpina model rare.

Simon's iconic E30 B6 3.5S suggestion certainly seems to fit the bill with 62 made as does Phil's suggest of the E64 B6S Cabriolet but the E63 B6S Coupe with nearly 100 cars made certainly stretches the point in comparison to other Alpina production numbers.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The E90/91/92 B3S bi Turbos for the UK market are pretty rare with only 4 saloons 7 tourings and 12 coupes reaching these shores, I was fortunate to own a E92 version.

I would quite like to own another one, but they rarely come up for sale Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B10BRW wrote:
The E90/91/92 B3S bi Turbos for the UK market are pretty rare with only 4 saloons 7 tourings and 12 coupes reaching these shores,(


Ahem....3 B3sBiturbo tourings, Brian Wink
Silver, black, space grey. One of each

In error, you've included the more recent 4 more 'common'' Wink F31's Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ade and liz flint wrote:
B10BRW wrote:
The E90/91/92 B3S bi Turbos for the UK market are pretty rare with only 4 saloons 7 tourings and 12 coupes reaching these shores,(


Ahem....3 B3sBiturbo tourings, Brian Wink
Silver, black, space grey. One of each

In error, you've included the more recent 4 more 'common'' Wink F31's Laughing


Blame Neil's record Wink
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