B5 Intermittent Non Starting Issue

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ABRAD
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B5 Intermittent Non Starting Issue

Post by ABRAD » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:08 pm

Bit of a weird one this.

Back in March - after a decent motorway trip in the rain - I parked the car up in the drive, turned it off and when I returned it wouldn't turn over??

Half an hour later it started with no issue - I presumed it was the rain and thought no more about it.

When I mentioned it at the MOT - they reckoned that sometimes (On the 540's) the camshaft sensor plays up and doesn't allow the car to start - to protect itself.

Anyway - on Sunday (this time temp in the 30's) I parked up, left the car for half an hour and again wouldn't turn over.

Bit of a panic this time as I was in a car parked that gets locked up mid afternoon - so called the breakdown people.

Tried the car several times no response - until 30 mins later - woof - back into life, panic over - breakdown truck cancelled. Since then no further issues???

It's as though the ignition doesn't detect the car is in park as the only warning symbol is a big "!" mark and it says "ignition on", on the I Drive.

Obviously I am taking it in for a check over when I get the chance - but just wondered if anyone had had similar issues or am I missing something obvious?

We'll be alright if it happens when I'm filling up or we are first in line at the Eurotunnel, lol!! Especially as you can't just put it in neutral on these things - as far as I can see?

Any help appreciated!!

Please don't queue behind me anywhere - just in case!!
Current Cars
2010 Alpina B3s Cab (233/Deep Sea Blue)
2002 Alpina B10 V8s (96/Avus Blue)
2008 Alpina B5s (453/Sapphire Black)
2007Alpina D3 MT (348/Titanium Silver)
2009 Honda S2000 (Black/Red Leather)
1999 F355 F1 Spyder (Black/Beige Leather - US Spec)
1988 BMW E28 M5 (Black/Natur Leather - US Spec)
1988 Volkswagen Golf GTI MK2 8V - looking sad for itself and to be renovated!!

Previous Cars
Renaultsport Clio 172
Volkswagen Scirocco
Vauxhall Cavalier SRI
Various Vectras, Laguna's, 406's etc - for work

PhillV8S
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Post by PhillV8S » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:13 pm

Did you park on an incline? The reason I ask is I have had this exact thing happen to me twice now. Once on top of a welsh mountain and just today on my friends driveway picking my son up.
First time I was with lots of car geeks and they figured the gearbox wasn’t in park properly. They put it in neutral and we rocked the car about abit. After 20 mins of attempts it sparked into life and was golden until today. Same thing engine hot parked on an incline facing uphill, go back to cat nothing. I got the car rolled onto flat ground and after 30mins and during the phone call to the AA it started again!
My thoughts are the transmission fluid maybe a little low so when heated up and on an incline it prevents the gearbox functioning correctly. Or a dicky gear selector unit.
Range Rover SDV8.
E64 B6s #100 Cabriolet (Now Sold)
Maserati Gransport

Jervint
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Post by Jervint » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:10 am

I think your MOT centre may be right.

We had this on our 330d. It would start from cold, but if you turned it off it wouldnt start again. Nightmare when the little one was 5 months old and it broke down far from home.

Changed the camshaft sensor. Perfect after that.

PhillV8S
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Post by PhillV8S » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:32 am

I see on the H1 engine there are 2 exhaust and 2 inlet cam position sensors, 1 of each for each bank. Anyway of knowing which could be dodgy rather than changing all 4?
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E64 B6s #100 Cabriolet (Now Sold)
Maserati Gransport

Sam T
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Post by Sam T » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:24 am

I had a very similar situation last year and maybe my experience might be of interest.

Over several months 2, or 3 random refusals to turn over at cold start. No dimming of dash lights, no clunk from starter pinion engaging, nothing. Moved selector from P to D and back, try again and all OK. Thought it my fault not putting it properly into P.

Then one day, after a long period stuck in traffic, parked up. Went back ten minutes later; no go. P to D and back made no difference.

Called RAC, who said there was a 4-5 hour wait! Went off and did what I had planned. Returned to the car and thinking that I will have to go and find a café somewhere, to wait for the RAC, I tried to start it again and it spun over and started. Cancelled RAC and carefully drove the 90 miles home.

Next morning, cold start was fine. I began to think that heat might be a factor. Before doing anything else, I read up E60 V8 starting issues on the web, to see if this was a common problem and saw several references to a relay module in the engine bay causing trouble with age and dry joints.

Normally I like to know the root cause before setting out, but doing it ‘properly’, by getting a dealer diagnosis offered the prospect of a serious spanking following ‘No Fault Found’ and a new starter motor being prescribed as the next step.

Replacing the V8 starter is a day’s work and hardly DIY, since the engine must be supported, subframe dropped, and exhaust manifold undone, with a realignment to follow, once everything is back in place. Not much change out of £2k, I suspect at dealer prices.

With all of that in mind, spending £75 and ten minutes of my time on first replacing the previously mentioned relay module seemed worth a punt.
Two days later, care of Cotswold at Cheltenham the relay was in. P/N 12527510638.

Of course, my experience may not apply as the B5S will be an LCI car, so no traditional ignition key and different electronics, but RealOEM indicates that it does use the same relay module.

It's always dangerous to apply a fix, without proper diagnosis, but for me there has been no refusal to turn over since, hot, or cold, so I am either lucky so far, or have cracked it.
E60 B5 Number 86
E34 M5 Touring - gone
E34 540i 6sp - gone
E3 3.0Si - long gone
1600-2 - long gone

ABRAD
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Post by ABRAD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses - all pretty plausible.

Car was on incline the first time but on Sunday it was just flat.

Reading into the posts when you put the IVM/ISM code into Google - that looks like the most likely cause - so I might give that a try b4 anything else.

Thinking back I did have a situation in the car park at work last year where the car was running but wouldn't select a gear for a couple of seconds and a fault saying something about not being able to detect the gearshift- again on a very hot day. If the solder has gone then maybe it is more affected by high temps - who knows.

At £75 it's worth a shot and cheaper than having a diagnostic to say that they can't find any fault. I might not be a mechanic but I can unplug stuff, lol!!

Hopefully it won't need re-coding on the LCI motor. Ill investigate getting one tomorrow.

Thanks again for the guidance - and I thought having the original supercharger was all I had to worry about!!!
Current Cars
2010 Alpina B3s Cab (233/Deep Sea Blue)
2002 Alpina B10 V8s (96/Avus Blue)
2008 Alpina B5s (453/Sapphire Black)
2007Alpina D3 MT (348/Titanium Silver)
2009 Honda S2000 (Black/Red Leather)
1999 F355 F1 Spyder (Black/Beige Leather - US Spec)
1988 BMW E28 M5 (Black/Natur Leather - US Spec)
1988 Volkswagen Golf GTI MK2 8V - looking sad for itself and to be renovated!!

Previous Cars
Renaultsport Clio 172
Volkswagen Scirocco
Vauxhall Cavalier SRI
Various Vectras, Laguna's, 406's etc - for work

PhillV8S
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:42 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by PhillV8S » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:36 pm

I think I will try the integrated module replacement as it’s a simple job and can cause many different faults so won’t do any harm putting a new one in. Thanks for the info Sam.
Range Rover SDV8.
E64 B6s #100 Cabriolet (Now Sold)
Maserati Gransport

PhillV8S
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Post by PhillV8S » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:19 am

Fitted a new IVM this morning. A bit of a faff but take your time and you can’t go wrong really. It is situated under the n/s pollen filter in the main wiring box.
Fingers crossed I get no more starting problems.
Range Rover SDV8.
E64 B6s #100 Cabriolet (Now Sold)
Maserati Gransport

ABRAD
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Post by ABRAD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Hi Phil

Just ordered a unit - will be here Wednesday.

Did you disconnect the battery to do this or did you just crack on?

Take it that you have had no coding issues whilst switching the cables over from module to module?
Current Cars
2010 Alpina B3s Cab (233/Deep Sea Blue)
2002 Alpina B10 V8s (96/Avus Blue)
2008 Alpina B5s (453/Sapphire Black)
2007Alpina D3 MT (348/Titanium Silver)
2009 Honda S2000 (Black/Red Leather)
1999 F355 F1 Spyder (Black/Beige Leather - US Spec)
1988 BMW E28 M5 (Black/Natur Leather - US Spec)
1988 Volkswagen Golf GTI MK2 8V - looking sad for itself and to be renovated!!

Previous Cars
Renaultsport Clio 172
Volkswagen Scirocco
Vauxhall Cavalier SRI
Various Vectras, Laguna's, 406's etc - for work

PhillV8S
ALPINA
ALPINA
Posts: 1130
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:42 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by PhillV8S » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:56 pm

I did disconnect the battery just to be safe. No coding required it is plug and play.
You need a 13mm socket to remove the cabin filter unit and a 5mm t bar/Allen key to take the cover off the unit containing the IVM. It is under the the passenger side cabin filter, all the online videos showed the l/h side but I discovered they must of been l/h drive cars as the brake servo is under the drivers side cabin filter.
I also removed the black screws holding in the frame holding the unit to allow me to pull the unit up fully to access the bottom connectors. Take your time and it will be less than 30 mins to do it. You can’t refit the the connectors incorrectly as they are all specific to their relative sockets which helps.
I took the old unit apart and their was some signs of heat and water damage but not excessive.
If you have time take the drivers side cabin filter out too as you can clean the drainage holes out that are underneath and can get blocked over time.
HTH.
Range Rover SDV8.
E64 B6s #100 Cabriolet (Now Sold)
Maserati Gransport

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