Rough Running upon cold start

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rattusM3
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Rough Running upon cold start

Post by rattusM3 » Wed May 30, 2018 1:51 pm

OK, have a very amusing situation where upon cold start the car's engine runs very lumpy which has resulted in the engine mngt light coming on.
Now, if you turn the engine off after a few seconds and start it up again the engine once more runs fine.

This procedure over the last couple of days seems consistent in which I have not bothered resetting the engine mngt light yet.
The error code registered indicates low fueling but I will double check this again.

I know my secondary air pump is very noisy and I have ordered a replacement, but assume this is a separate matter and nothing to do with the initial rough running as I have tested for both blowing and sucking.

I have changed the plugs just in-case, as they have done c. 20k
I did find the plugs were a bit oily around the base of the threads but assume this has accumulated over the 20k of use knowing these engines like to consume a bit of oil.

I will book the car in with Redish - but any ideas would be welcome.

Kev
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
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Post by rc944 » Wed May 30, 2018 2:09 pm

can you run inpa or similar diagnostics? youre too far away from me otherwise id gladly loan you mine
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Post by tg » Wed May 30, 2018 5:04 pm

Fuelling could be either an issue in the fuel system itself (e.g. pump problem or fuel line blockage) or control of the fuelling by the ECU.

In the latter case check for splits in the rubber bellows between the MAF and the inlet manifold. That allows un-metered air into the engine causing all the ECU's fuelling assumptions to be out

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Post by rattusM3 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:04 pm

rc944 wrote:can you run inpa or similar diagnostics? youre too far away from me otherwise id gladly loan you mine
Many thanks for the offer, hopefully I can get James at Redish to check her out if all else fails. I do have some BMW diagnostic software laying about but need to re-install it again on a laptop with a serial port. From recollection it is the DIS V57 / SSS V32 software and was a bit of a pain to install and configure.
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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Post by rattusM3 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:25 pm

tg wrote:Fuelling could be either an issue in the fuel system itself (e.g. pump problem or fuel line blockage) or control of the fuelling by the ECU.

In the latter case check for splits in the rubber bellows between the MAF and the inlet manifold. That allows un-metered air into the engine causing all the ECU's fuelling assumptions to be out
Yep, hopefully this weekend I can spend a bit of time checking all vacuum related and inlet pipework.
May run a test on the injectors to see how they are operating, but it is still a mystery why turning ignition off and starting engine again seems to resolve the problem.
Anyway, air pump arrives tomorrow so one less thing to tick off the list.
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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Post by ali » Wed May 30, 2018 9:49 pm

Check the rubber boots on the inlet side for air leaks. Common issue on these engines
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Post by rc944 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:31 pm

tg wrote:Fuelling could be either an issue in the fuel system itself (e.g. pump problem or fuel line blockage) or control of the fuelling by the ECU.

In the latter case check for splits in the rubber bellows between the MAF and the inlet manifold. That allows un-metered air into the engine causing all the ECU's fuelling assumptions to be out
this wouldnt explain how its fine once turned off from idle and then turned back on again
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Post by rc944 » Wed May 30, 2018 11:34 pm

i almost promise your injectors will be fine

whats the mileage? i bet north of 80k ish?
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Post by Charles » Wed May 30, 2018 11:50 pm

rc944 wrote:
tg wrote:Fuelling could be either an issue in the fuel system itself (e.g. pump problem or fuel line blockage)...
this wouldnt explain how its fine once turned off from idle and then turned back on again
Actually it might, as the symptoms sound familiar and was resolved by replacing the fuel filter

A really simple check would be to take a look at the fuel filter and its manufacture date - I bet it's still the original one :shock:

What may be happening is the filter is getting pretty mucky and overnight everything solidifies. When first started from cold, the fuel pump is struggling to get enough fuel through the filter - hence the rough running. However, switching off and starting up again will have loosened up the muck sufficiently to allow the fuel lines to pressurise correctly.

For the sake of a few quid and a quick DIY changeover, this will eliminate that issue and probably solve the problem.

Let me know the outcome
Charles
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Post by rattusM3 » Thu May 31, 2018 1:51 pm

OK, fair enough, will order and replace the fuel filter - nice and easy, just need to check invoices beforehand as I cannot remember if I asked for it to be replaced on the last insp 2.

Mileage is now 123k

Kev
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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Post by rc944 » Thu May 31, 2018 8:59 pm

if a blocked fuel filter was really causing the fuel starvation to be as severe as to clause the eml to come on, it wouldnt resolve itself after a warm start

replacing it isnt a bad idea and i did mine as a matter of course when i bought it but in your case i dont think it will solve the problem

i wouldnt throw parts at it and just wait for redish to get the autologic on and give you their thoughts...

are you experiencing any other issues like misfiring at all?
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Post by rattusM3 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:09 am

rc944 wrote:if a blocked fuel filter was really causing the fuel starvation to be as severe as to clause the eml to come on, it wouldnt resolve itself after a warm start

replacing it isnt a bad idea and i did mine as a matter of course when i bought it but in your case i dont think it will solve the problem

i wouldnt throw parts at it and just wait for redish to get the autologic on and give you their thoughts...

are you experiencing any other issues like misfiring at all?
Well, no evidence that fuel filter has been replaced paper-work wise so will do a physical inspection - will be a good place to start, and go from there.

No issues on the road, car runs absolutely fine, the only point to mention is the idle on load (in gear) can sometime fluctuate a little, so will have another look at vaccum hoses, etc.

Funny enough, the eml light went out today.
Not using the car next week so will give me a little more time to tinker before admitting defeat and ask James to have a look.

Kevin
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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Post by rattusM3 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:46 pm

Well, tried a 2nd hand secondary pump from FAB and it was noisier than the one originally on the car, also the car did not seem to be happy with it at all - strange, maybe it was just me.
Anyway will now just go and buy a new one from the dealer, was hoping to use that money on other stuff for the car but there you go.

Oh, the eml came back on again (not that surprising) and 4 codes were recorded and read by my VGate Scan Tool:

P0313 - Misfire with low fuel
P1351 - Misfire Cylinder 5 fuel Cut Out
P0171 - System Too Lean Bank 1
P0174 - System Too Lean Bank 2

The clues are definately there, dont you think.

Inspection of the inlet hoses all look fine, nothing obvious, did not delve any further on all the vaccum hoses.

Booked in with a local indy in Swindon rather than Redish - basically to see how good they are and if happy will be very convenient - will see what the professionals come up with.

Saying that I would in general prefer to use Redish in Bristol, James, Luke et al. are great and just know their stuff and give that personal touch ... but, when they are very busy it is always handy to have a backup.

Oh, have ordered that fuel filter as well, will not hurt to change.

Kev
Last edited by rattusM3 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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Post by Charles » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:55 pm

rattusM3 wrote:P0313 - Misfire with low fuel
P1351 - Misfire Cylinder 5 fuel Cut Out
P0171 - System Too Lean Bank 1
P0174 - System Too Lean Bank 2

The clues are definately there, dont you think.
All of these suggest not enough fuel getting through.


CHANGE THAT FUEL FILTER :wink:
Charles
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B3S Touring (49/116) - been to the moon and now on the way back!
Renault Grand Espace - not mine but the wife's!

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Post by rattusM3 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:59 pm

Charles wrote:
rattusM3 wrote:P0313 - Misfire with low fuel
P1351 - Misfire Cylinder 5 fuel Cut Out
P0171 - System Too Lean Bank 1
P0174 - System Too Lean Bank 2

The clues are definately there, dont you think.
All of these suggest not enough fuel getting through.


CHANGE THAT FUEL FILTER :wink:
Yep, edited my post - forgot to say Fuel Filter now ordered!!!
2002 Alpina B3 3.3 #220
2006 E46 M3
1992 E30 M3 (sold - what a twat)
1986 E24 M6 (working on)
Ford Grand C-Max Family Wagon
And lots of other BMWs from the past

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