Hi guys,
After almost 8 years, I'm thinking of selling up primarily due to lack of use and associated costs of storage.....
The car is a 2001 facelift B10 V8 - with a late engine number with the improved head gasket and the much nicer 19" alloys.
Orient Blue metallic with silver nappa leather piped in dark blue and the usual wood trim albeit in a 'subtler/darker than others I've seen' hue.
123k miles, full history, all books, I'm the 5th owner I think.
Mechanically the car is excellent and has had whatever it's ever needed as it was my daily for it's earlier years with me, so no issues there and had an oil service less than 1k miles ago - next service would be an inspection 1. Things like MAF, cooling system, various bushes/arms, full proper gearbox service, brake lines over the rear subframe, rocker cover gaskets and the associated valve...... have all been replaced/sorted/overhauled over the years by quality independents such as CPC, Munich Motors etc. Has always had positive feedback as to what an up together and lovely example it is.
Cosmetically, very clean and tidy - have had the boot spoiler rust issue sorted previously, but there is a half a 50p sized scab starting on one rear arch and the same again on the bottom edge of the bootlid as well as some chips to the front spoiler and leading edge of the bonnet. Wheels could also do with a refurb after an ill fated trip trying to navigate the tiny streets of Winchester. The car looks terrific from 10 feet away, and more than presentable up close, but if you wanted it as a garage queen, you'd want the wheels done and maybe £7/800 quids worth of paint?
It's due an MOT which I know it will pass so with 12months ticket, no mechanical issues whatsoever and just some cosmetics that could be attended to as and when.....where should this be pitched for a fairly quick sale....
If I'm going to part with her, I'd like it to be quick and painless rather than take months for the sake of a few hundred quid more?
Tyres are Eagle F1's all round with 5/6mm remaining and good discs pads allound as well, so no immediate spend on any 'consumables' needed either and would come with a generic B10 xxx plate included.
Was thinking of putting it up for £9k and look to achieve £8k+???
Does that sound realistic/sensible? Or am I over/under with that sort of guesstimate??
I appreciate people may not want to openly post what they have or haven't brought or sold their own cars at, but I'd appreciate some pointers from recent sales or purchases if possible (PM is fine).
I've seen the Old Colonel one up for £13.5k and he usually prices his cars fairly keenly so they sell quick....obviously I've no idea on the history of that one and it's done 30k less, but as far as I can tell, my car isn't an awful long way away from that one??
Cheers all - very subjective question I know, but any constructive input greatfully appreciated
Cheers,
David
Another valuation guide/query....sorry - B10 V8
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JudgeBaxter
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:12 am
- Location: Hants
Here is one turned up today of similar vintage as a guide price
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Alpina-B10 ... Ciid%253A8
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Alpina-B10 ... Ciid%253A8
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JudgeBaxter
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:12 am
- Location: Hants
Hi guys,
Thanks for the feedback - I thought that seemed about right, but it's good to know your not wildly out.
Yep - saw that one on Ebay pop up - looks broadly similar to mine apart from that one has the 18"s on and in the nicest possible way, the 19"s are far nicer on a B10, not to mention a lot stronger and better riding....
But no - mine hasn't had the guides done though..... but as a long term E30 M3 owner, I think this is more a case of a (relatively speaking) few horror stories popping up on forums and the ensuing "hype" around them creating an impression that all the engines on a certain car at a certain age or mileage are literally waiting to detonate....
We were all told back in 2000-ish that an E30 M3 was a ticking time bomb once it hit 100K miles or more, and a lot believed it for a few years, but as time went by, it did turn out to be nothing more than a few fairly unlucky individuals who actually had a chain snap on them, and in the vast majority of cases it seemed that a new E36 tensioner for 70 odd quid would quiet down the chain and people where only changing out the guides and chains on cars once they'd either hit mega 200K plus mileage, or simply as preventative maintenance as part of a resto or rebuild etc. to gain more power....
I'm not saying it's exactly the same with the E39 V8 lumps, but it has a lot of similarities, and there must literally be thousands and thousands of those engines happily running on 200K+ mile engines, never having had the guides or chain done. And whilst yes, they may be a bit rattly perhaps, but equally that doesn't mean they are about to detonate either.....
Common sense applies I think and if the engine is quiet and healthy, as mine is, whilst it's undoubtably worn to a degree I'm sure, it might not need doing for another 50K miles, or it might need doing in the next 15/20K miles, but in either event I'd say that would be years away for most owners as these old beasts are basically weekend/occasional cars now for most people.
Service history and usage i.e. regular normal usage or periodic 'enthusiastic' usage with the car being idle in-between, quality of oil used etc. etc. must all play a factor as well I'm sure and if Ali's car has just been done at 150K, and the silver one on ebay at 130Kish, then there is quite a gap there already which must be down to the cars history more than a hard and fast "this will fail at this specific mileage" rule of thumb.....??
£3K does seem excessive also? Are the guides/tensioners Alpina specific?
Anyway, food for thought I think. Took her for a run yesterday and was reminded what a wonderful old bus she is, so now I'm not sure what to do.....there really isn't a lot out there that can do what these cars can do for anything like the same sort of money....
cheers,
David.
Thanks for the feedback - I thought that seemed about right, but it's good to know your not wildly out.
Yep - saw that one on Ebay pop up - looks broadly similar to mine apart from that one has the 18"s on and in the nicest possible way, the 19"s are far nicer on a B10, not to mention a lot stronger and better riding....
But no - mine hasn't had the guides done though..... but as a long term E30 M3 owner, I think this is more a case of a (relatively speaking) few horror stories popping up on forums and the ensuing "hype" around them creating an impression that all the engines on a certain car at a certain age or mileage are literally waiting to detonate....
We were all told back in 2000-ish that an E30 M3 was a ticking time bomb once it hit 100K miles or more, and a lot believed it for a few years, but as time went by, it did turn out to be nothing more than a few fairly unlucky individuals who actually had a chain snap on them, and in the vast majority of cases it seemed that a new E36 tensioner for 70 odd quid would quiet down the chain and people where only changing out the guides and chains on cars once they'd either hit mega 200K plus mileage, or simply as preventative maintenance as part of a resto or rebuild etc. to gain more power....
I'm not saying it's exactly the same with the E39 V8 lumps, but it has a lot of similarities, and there must literally be thousands and thousands of those engines happily running on 200K+ mile engines, never having had the guides or chain done. And whilst yes, they may be a bit rattly perhaps, but equally that doesn't mean they are about to detonate either.....
Common sense applies I think and if the engine is quiet and healthy, as mine is, whilst it's undoubtably worn to a degree I'm sure, it might not need doing for another 50K miles, or it might need doing in the next 15/20K miles, but in either event I'd say that would be years away for most owners as these old beasts are basically weekend/occasional cars now for most people.
Service history and usage i.e. regular normal usage or periodic 'enthusiastic' usage with the car being idle in-between, quality of oil used etc. etc. must all play a factor as well I'm sure and if Ali's car has just been done at 150K, and the silver one on ebay at 130Kish, then there is quite a gap there already which must be down to the cars history more than a hard and fast "this will fail at this specific mileage" rule of thumb.....??
£3K does seem excessive also? Are the guides/tensioners Alpina specific?
Anyway, food for thought I think. Took her for a run yesterday and was reminded what a wonderful old bus she is, so now I'm not sure what to do.....there really isn't a lot out there that can do what these cars can do for anything like the same sort of money....
cheers,
David.
Hi David
You make a valid point that sometimes the internet can make these topics into bigger issues than perhaps they are in real life. But I'm afraid the M62 (and M5 S62) timing chain guides issue is widespread and down to some very simple issues from the design/materials BMW chose to use.
The chains themselves are pretty much bullet proof, the guides however are not as they are plastic. The affect of age and heat cycles mean the material becomes brittle and eventually fail. The additional issue is the tensioner that keeps the timing chain taut is hydraulic and with age loses its ability to keep the chain tight. A lose chain and aging plastic guides means inevitably the plastic fails from the chains slapping, creating the problem.
A new hydraulic tensioner is therefore a very prudent piece of preventative medicine to keep the chain in check.
If you speak to specialists of the E39 they will tell you that these failures and repairs are common now on 540s/B10s/M5s. There's no rule of thumb of exactly when this will happen, but age and mileage are applicable factors and with the youngest cars being 14 years old and most cars having done at least 100k it's now a matter of time before they'll need doing.
Some cars may well go 200k miles before it's due but it's rare.
Symptoms - noise is the biggest give away, usually on start up.
A bill or circa £2.5 - 3k is correct as a significant amount of the front of the engine needs stripping down. Usually by the time the issue is diagnosed some of the guides have disintegrated so there are small pieces of plastic that need flushing out of the engine. Then it's a case of new guides, chains and tensioner, gaskets etc. The parts are standard BMW M62 parts, no Alpina specific parts required.
All of this of course does not mean your car is due, but as you'd expect from any enthusiast looking at a B10 V8, it's on the list of things to look out for and hence why it's come up.
You make a valid point that sometimes the internet can make these topics into bigger issues than perhaps they are in real life. But I'm afraid the M62 (and M5 S62) timing chain guides issue is widespread and down to some very simple issues from the design/materials BMW chose to use.
The chains themselves are pretty much bullet proof, the guides however are not as they are plastic. The affect of age and heat cycles mean the material becomes brittle and eventually fail. The additional issue is the tensioner that keeps the timing chain taut is hydraulic and with age loses its ability to keep the chain tight. A lose chain and aging plastic guides means inevitably the plastic fails from the chains slapping, creating the problem.
A new hydraulic tensioner is therefore a very prudent piece of preventative medicine to keep the chain in check.
If you speak to specialists of the E39 they will tell you that these failures and repairs are common now on 540s/B10s/M5s. There's no rule of thumb of exactly when this will happen, but age and mileage are applicable factors and with the youngest cars being 14 years old and most cars having done at least 100k it's now a matter of time before they'll need doing.
Some cars may well go 200k miles before it's due but it's rare.
Symptoms - noise is the biggest give away, usually on start up.
A bill or circa £2.5 - 3k is correct as a significant amount of the front of the engine needs stripping down. Usually by the time the issue is diagnosed some of the guides have disintegrated so there are small pieces of plastic that need flushing out of the engine. Then it's a case of new guides, chains and tensioner, gaskets etc. The parts are standard BMW M62 parts, no Alpina specific parts required.
All of this of course does not mean your car is due, but as you'd expect from any enthusiast looking at a B10 V8, it's on the list of things to look out for and hence why it's come up.
2019 G31 B5 Biturbo No.299
2012 F10 D5 Biturbo No.13
1993 Mercedes 190E 2.6 Sportline spec
1991 Mk1 Golf GTI Sportline cabriolet
2012 F10 D5 Biturbo No.13
1993 Mercedes 190E 2.6 Sportline spec
1991 Mk1 Golf GTI Sportline cabriolet
Wow, I was thinking from previous posts that doing the timing chain guides as a precaution when doing the water pump was a fairly simple and inexpensive job. Mines a 2002 on 86k with no noises. Still leaning towards the precautionary but not so sure if I need to go to these lengths or just do the water pump.
John
Alpina Blue B10 V8S #54 Saloon
Montreal Red F20 M-Sport
Sparkling Bronze F30 Xdrive (sold)
Titan Silver E90 325iSE (sold)
Blue Mini Cooper (sold)
Alpina Blue B10 V8S #54 Saloon
Montreal Red F20 M-Sport
Sparkling Bronze F30 Xdrive (sold)
Titan Silver E90 325iSE (sold)
Blue Mini Cooper (sold)
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JudgeBaxter
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:12 am
- Location: Hants
I am surprised it costs that much to be honest, especially as the internet/youtube etc. seems to have a multitude of 'how to' and diy type guides on how to change the guides and chain in your own garage.
Not something I'd fully tackle myself I think, but I'd be happy to strip off most of the engine if I needed to.....
I'll still reiterate my point though that I think there is no hard and fast rule on them. Obviously anything plastic in contact with metal will wear eventually and I'm sure a new tensioner helps quieten down a noisey chain, but if you have no noise, no symptoms....do you leave well alone until something does start happening or do you get it done "just in case"?
I'm personally a firm believer in a solid service history far outweighs mileage when buying a car and I'd venture that on balance, a bog standard 540i may not perhaps have always been serviced as religiously and with the correct spec oils etc. as you would hope that an Alpina would have been.
That said, the Alpina is obviously the higher performance unit, so perhaps could/would have been driven harder more regularly..so does that make things wear faster/more??
A little bit of paranoia set in if I'm honest and I must have listened and watched 15/20 before and after video's on youtube of noisey chains and how they sound afterwards.......perhaps I'm on borrowed time, but my engine is completely free of any rattles or noises - there pretty distinctive symptoms from what I've heard - and sounds quiet and smooth like it always has in the 8 years I've had her.
I think if I do sell, perhaps I'll do a decent video of the car starting from stone cold and records the engine noise and invite people to listen to what a rattly/noisey one sounds like and let them make their own minds up.
Is there any historical info on whether this issue has ever been addressed by BMW under warranty as I know my car was under warranty until circa 80/82K miles I think - literally only a few K miles before I brought her? Unlikely I know, but if it is purely a mileage related issue rather than a combination of factors, then maybe a few cars have been done under warranty in the past.
The post seems to have gone off topic now, but if nothing else I know I'll need to reassure any potential buyer of this and how healthy (or not I guess) my engine is, but hopefully the history and a good video of her starting and running will help with that if I do end up selling.
Cheers all,
David.
Not something I'd fully tackle myself I think, but I'd be happy to strip off most of the engine if I needed to.....
I'll still reiterate my point though that I think there is no hard and fast rule on them. Obviously anything plastic in contact with metal will wear eventually and I'm sure a new tensioner helps quieten down a noisey chain, but if you have no noise, no symptoms....do you leave well alone until something does start happening or do you get it done "just in case"?
I'm personally a firm believer in a solid service history far outweighs mileage when buying a car and I'd venture that on balance, a bog standard 540i may not perhaps have always been serviced as religiously and with the correct spec oils etc. as you would hope that an Alpina would have been.
That said, the Alpina is obviously the higher performance unit, so perhaps could/would have been driven harder more regularly..so does that make things wear faster/more??
A little bit of paranoia set in if I'm honest and I must have listened and watched 15/20 before and after video's on youtube of noisey chains and how they sound afterwards.......perhaps I'm on borrowed time, but my engine is completely free of any rattles or noises - there pretty distinctive symptoms from what I've heard - and sounds quiet and smooth like it always has in the 8 years I've had her.
I think if I do sell, perhaps I'll do a decent video of the car starting from stone cold and records the engine noise and invite people to listen to what a rattly/noisey one sounds like and let them make their own minds up.
Is there any historical info on whether this issue has ever been addressed by BMW under warranty as I know my car was under warranty until circa 80/82K miles I think - literally only a few K miles before I brought her? Unlikely I know, but if it is purely a mileage related issue rather than a combination of factors, then maybe a few cars have been done under warranty in the past.
The post seems to have gone off topic now, but if nothing else I know I'll need to reassure any potential buyer of this and how healthy (or not I guess) my engine is, but hopefully the history and a good video of her starting and running will help with that if I do end up selling.
Cheers all,
David.
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JudgeBaxter
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:12 am
- Location: Hants
PS to Ali
Thanks for posting your bill - that's a useful guide.
I can't quite make it out, but there is a part towards the bottom of the bill costing £460 quid (ex vat I assume) - looks like it starts with a V? What's that bit please and is it essential as part of a chain/guide change out?
cheers,
David.
Thanks for posting your bill - that's a useful guide.
I can't quite make it out, but there is a part towards the bottom of the bill costing £460 quid (ex vat I assume) - looks like it starts with a V? What's that bit please and is it essential as part of a chain/guide change out?
cheers,
David.
Going to throw my 10p's worth in here
I work in a main dealer, majority of the parts team are there 10+ years, one 30+ years
Mate of mine is a specialist, works at alot of E39 M5's (alright its an S62 not an M62, but they're similar-ish)
Neither had sold/replaced the timing chain on the V8, as its a bombproof piece of kit, the only exception is an S62 thats broken a guide which was recently
Plenty of threads on here saying Replace the Tensioner and bob's your uncle as it'll wear over time
The chains aren't like the previous geeneration of 4 Cylinder Diesel's....
I work in a main dealer, majority of the parts team are there 10+ years, one 30+ years
Mate of mine is a specialist, works at alot of E39 M5's (alright its an S62 not an M62, but they're similar-ish)
Neither had sold/replaced the timing chain on the V8, as its a bombproof piece of kit, the only exception is an S62 thats broken a guide which was recently
Plenty of threads on here saying Replace the Tensioner and bob's your uncle as it'll wear over time
The chains aren't like the previous geeneration of 4 Cylinder Diesel's....
'00 E39 B10 V8 Saloon #456 (Weekend) - Traded
'10 E90N D3 BT Saloon #262 (Daily) -Traded
'06 E60 M5 Saloon (Daily)
'10 E90N D3 BT Saloon #262 (Daily) -Traded
'06 E60 M5 Saloon (Daily)